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There are two chatlogs here. The first is the main *official* #tux4kids log. The second is an excerpt from
a private chat between myself and Jesse Andrews. It contains some items not covered in the *official* chat
but which are pertinent to Tux Typing in general.

                        -Sam "Criswell" Hart

--> You are now talking on #tux4kids
--- Topic for #tux4kids is Tuxtype Internationalization issues discussion
--- Topic for #tux4kids set by calZZZzz at Sun Mar 17 02:04:51
<criswell> calZZZzz: is that you cal? ;-)
--- #tux4kids :The channel demigods have stolen your voice
--- Offering DCC CHAT to calZZZzz
--- #tux4kids :You need to be a channel operator to do that
--- You have new mail (1 messages, 2805 bytes total).
--> jdandr2_ (jdandr2<at>uky<dot>edu) has joined #tux4kids
<criswell> has this op been fixed?
--- #tux4kids :The channel demigods have stolen your voice
--- calZZZzz is now known as cal
<criswell> cal: can we talk yet?
--- #tux4kids :The channel demigods have stolen your voice
>cal< let me talk too ;-)
--- cal sets mode -m #tux4kids
--- cal sets mode -n #tux4kids
--- cal sets mode -t #tux4kids
<jdandr2_> hi?
<criswell> hello?
<cal> that better
<criswell> alright?
<criswell> i mean "alirght!"
<jdandr2_> seems to work
<criswell> so, will someone be capturing this (I cant figure out this crazy Xchat!)
<cal> Hi all
<cal> You mean I'm not the only one who's new at this?
<criswell> I suck at IRC... ;-)
<jdandr2_> I don't know how to either...
<criswell> doh! ;-)
<jdandr2_> Can you Cal?
<cal> yeah I can save it
<jdandr2_> so, does anyone know how sdl_ttf is?
<criswell> I was using it in tuxreader... it's pretty good, I think it could meet our needs
<jdandr2_> is the interface (to sdl_ttf) fairly nice?
<criswell> it seemed to be pretty simple.
<criswell> the one problem is that whatever TTF file we included, would have to allow it (i.e;, be freely redistributable)
<jdandr2_> does debian have any?
<criswell> and we can't just assume that if we pick "courier" the user's system will have it
<cal> boy you guys caught me off guard ... Was up most of the night and need a few minutes
<jdandr2_> since they will be free...
<criswell> cal: sorry ;-)
<jdandr2_> hehe.
<jdandr2_> no problem
<cal> brb k
<criswell> cal: we had been talking for a bit elsewhere ;-)
<criswell> k
<jdandr2_> this is my last day of spring break so I stayed up until 4 am debating with my roommate after watching Fight Club...
<jdandr2_> Maybe on April 2nd we can make the announcement then...
<criswell> jesse, can I include portions (editted out non-tux4kids stuff) in the online chatlogs?
<criswell> (I mean, of our private chat sorry)
<jdandr2_> I would hope to accompany it with a code release
<jdandr2_> sure.
<jdandr2_> I am very flexible...
<criswell> okay. Cal submitted me a patch a month or so ago, but I have lost it and we're trying to find it again (he didn't send it to you did he?)
<jdandr2_> not that I remember
<criswell> I was so flaky there for the longest time
<jdandr2_> I have my home directory from my debain install and I will grep it ;)
<jdandr2_> thats ok.
<criswell> it was tuxtyping-1.0.2.tar.gz (not official release, but a patched version)
<jdandr2_> I was too...  all school
<jdandr2_> what did it do?
<criswell> he fixed some framerate issues
<criswell> (which are needed)
<jdandr2_> yep.
<criswell> he's found half of them, but I'm yet to apply them because I have one more place to check (my work computer)
<criswell> i'm going to have to leave in a bit, but I'll be back in an hour or so (I'm going to skip part of church much to my wife's chagrin ;-)
<jdandr2_> no problem
<criswell> actually, just talked with here, and she'd be okay if I stayed
<jdandr2_> before you go: what about ttf and unicode?
<jdandr2_> do they work together?
<criswell> dunno... see I know very little about all this unicode, il8n, etc stuff...
<criswell> I assume unicode and ttf do... but I don't know
<jdandr2_> I seem to remember debian having ttf fonts available in the free branch
<criswell> looks like there are some
<jdandr2_> and I would think if any project has had to tackle itnernationalization, it has been debian
<criswell> some are non-free or contrib installers from other OSes
<jdandr2_> I rmember you can download M$'s fonts but they cannot be included or something like that.
<criswell> right
<criswell> know anything about font metrics? (make our own ;-)
<jdandr2_> not really
<cal> back
<jdandr2_> so have you ever deesigned a font Cal?
<cal> nope but I'm not agaisnt learning it...
<jdandr2_> Sam was just mentioning that we could get around trying to find a free ttf font(s) if we did them ourself...
<cal> however that won't help if we plan on internationalizing it I don't think
<jdandr2_> but thinking about internationalization, this would mean you would have to create them ...
<jdandr2_> yep
<cal> I need some info guys...
<jdandr2_> Maybe fonts aren't that big of a deal
<jdandr2_> we can surely find some for english and let people of other langauages find good ones for them...
<cal> I don't think that they are I think the bigger deal is painting them on the fish
<jdandr2_> from what Sam mentioned SDL_ttf does seem to be a good choice
<cal> and single double byte character sets...
<jdandr2_> I know that in sfont it was trivial to do that.
<cal> Dfont
<jdandr2_> UNICODE!!!
<cal> yup....
<jdandr2_> never used unicode, but...
<cal> Sam... The first thing that needs to be done is th fork in the road (code)
<jdandr2_> Sam may be talking with his wife before she goes to Church...
<cal> we need a new tree to play with but you are as I undestand it the ony one who can do that..
<cal> ooohh missed that.. 
<criswell> I'm not going (I'm a heathen sp?)
<cal> well...
<criswell> yeah, I think we need to branch off a dev and stable
<jdandr2_> is sourceforge still a good place gto cvs stuff?
<criswell> stable will be prettyy much what we have now, with bugfixes.. dev will be were TTF, unicode, whatever is added
<criswell> sourceforge's CVS is fine... it's their mailing lists I hate
<criswell> speaking of that...
<criswell> we supposedly have a sun box for a new server for whatever we want...
<criswell> however, the admin of the box is yet to get me the IP/login info so I can start setting it up...
<jdandr2_> hmm
<criswell> perhaps we should launch a friendly (very friendly) campaign to *remind* him to get this info to me ?
<jdandr2_> well now that the project has woken up, we can probably work on that... ;)
<cal> Work for me...
<jdandr2_> but CVS under sourceforge should be good at least for now ;)
<criswell> yes, I thought that what we'd recommend for projects is they use other services (SF, Tigris, etc) for the brunt of their developmen...
<criswell> and then we supply anything the others have shortcomings with
<criswell> we actually have two new projects (only one am I involved with ;-) which will need these services
<jdandr2_> what are they?
<criswell> a physics sim one (for high school and even college [I know, not quite kids]) which replaces software we use at the U of A
<criswell> and a biology teaching aid (CGI, HTML, and JavaScript) for K-12
<cal> Tuxtype is for kids of all ages...
<criswell> http://sourceforge.net/projects/open-cell/ is the biology one
<criswell> cal: oh yeah... sorry ;-)
<cal> ok thats getting off track though...
<criswell> I don't think we'd need to make our own TTF fonts (honestly)
<jdandr2_> I will google for sdl_ttf and unicode...
<criswell> I think jesse had it right, we should look at debian, etc and see if we can find something that would be free (as in freedom)
<cal> I got a pretty good picture of what needs to be done in graphics.c
<jdandr2_> sdl_ttf seems to have unicode support built in ...
<cal> it's the graphics routines in playgame.c I need help with
<jdandr2_> cal: what exactly with?
<criswell> sdl_ttf (I think) is just an SDL-ized wrapper for the cross-platform TTF lib. So if TTF supports it, SDL_TTF should as well
<cal> SDLupperBLIT and Lower blit specifically
<criswell> cal: ooog... old stuff needs to be fixed
<cal> The sdl doc don't cover it...
<criswell> SDL(upper/lower) were ways to get around some early checking that SDL did that slowed things down... They aren't needed any more (AFAIK)
<cal> old stuff but thats whats used???
<criswell> yeah, well I started tuxtyping something like three years ago... there's lots of cruft from the early days ;-)
<cal> what three area in addition to the font problem need to be addressed to internat.. TT
<jdandr2_> Sam: your right sdl_ttf runs on freetype (available at freetype.org)
<jdandr2_> input!
<cal> yes requires freetype 2
<criswell> sdl_ttf produces SDL images, which makes it useful in SDL
<jdandr2_> Sam: sdl_surfaces?
<cal> Yes
<criswell> yeah...
<jdandr2_> so we have a way to display the letters
<jdandr2_> we need to be able to get the input (both from users and from files)
<criswell> SDL now (apparently) supports international input
<cal> Anything else?
<jdandr2_> fonts page: http://www.ccss.de/slovo/unifonts.htm
<criswell> http://sdldoc.csn.ul.ie/guideinputkeyboard.php shows the SDL_keysysm which provides an UNICODE representatuion of input
<criswell> (hey, figured out logging in xchat ... sorry OT ;-)
<criswell> jesse: looks like a lot of those are MS fonts (cant use)
<jdandr2_> There is one called Code2000, we might be able to contact hte author about...
<criswell> personally, I'd like something easy to read (like Courier) but that is 100% free to use
<criswell> "offered as a shareware demo".... but he may be interested.
<jdandr2_> it is worth as shot...
<jdandr2_> there is a font called "Ballymun Fonts" at http://www.assembly.nu.ca/test/unicode/
<jdandr2_> it's license would allow us to use it.
<cal> There are truly millions of freeware TTf font's on the internet
<criswell> but are they "free"... A lot of times "freeware" things still have redistribution issues
<jdandr2_> so the only unresolved issue is with "packages/themes"
<jdandr2_> just exactly internationalization is specified
<jdandr2_> (how)
<criswell> we will be including this in a GPL app... which means it may find its way into a commercial package (eg Red Hat)
<criswell> packages/themes?
<jdandr2_> we had talked about using packages/themes as a way to allow internationalization
<criswell> well, if we supply a TTF font, then it could be themeable as well (i.e., someone could insert a new TTF font for their international language, or whatever)
<criswell> yes, and using TTF wont change that
<criswell> it just changes what file to modify when someone adds new fonts
<jdandr2_> Should there be more setup options within tux?  (that way you don't have to modify text files?)
<cal> options the next menu item on the menu
<criswell> I think eventually, the user should be able to modify text files easily from within tuxtyping... but I dont know best way to go about ity yet
<jdandr2_> I agree about options menu
<cal> It'd be easy to implement
<criswell> but we may want to have an option in options menu that loads up an external editor (make it more modular)
<jdandr2_> maybe...
<cal> that wouldn't be hard either
<criswell> for example, once we get one word file editor, it could be used in a number of apps (tuxtype, tuxread, etc)
<jdandr2_> I would think keep things simple within the built-in menus, but allow advanced things outside...
<criswell> plus, it could be an external project (which makes managing easier)
<criswell> right
<jdandr2_> Where tuxtype is fairly big in Japan, Maybe upon installation, the user chooses the default language (the first menu has tux asking what language do you speak)
<criswell> however, in some places (especially japan) the real use in tuxtype is to learn english keyboards (few people in Japan use native keyboards)
<criswell> it should be easily reconfigurable
<cal> So the issues seem to be Font display, configuration, and keycode decode
<criswell> for internationalization, yes
<jdandr2_> and configuration could be the last thing
<criswell> yes... supply a CLI option for that for now
<jdandr2_> we could just provide different versions for different languages at first...
<criswell> actually, I think we should keep the 1.0 branch as is, and make dev branch more modular (supply framework for others to add in new languages with)
<criswell> probnlem with that is that theming wont be backwardly compat (but that's okay, since it'll be the right way to do things)
<cal> more modular yes,,, playgame.c is way to big
<criswell> playgame.c consists of good ideas, and cruft I threw in because I was lazy
<jdandr2_> how many themes are there?
<cal> so are we sam!!!
<jdandr2_> we could just port the few there are...
<criswell> except if we use TTF, porting them may be hard.
<criswell> right now there are three I know of, and four promised ones I've nver seen (though, two may be waiting for unicode or il8n)
<cal> I would think port old themes a non issue
<jdandr2_> ditto
<criswell> i guess yeah... because they'd use the default font (excetp for my ASL one ;-)
<cal> we just make the new TT so much better nobody cares bout the old
<criswell> http://www.tux4kids.org/dm/tuxtype/themes/
<jdandr2_> ;)
<cal> we will always care sam!!! :-)
<criswell> and I think now would be the good time to do this, before we have 50 themes ;-)
<jdandr2_> so cal, do you have a part you really would like to code?
<cal> Iin short yes... but I need some coaching...
<cal> Main and graphics.c are a non issue for me I need help understanding flow in  playgame...
<jdandr2_> hehe
<jdandr2_> It took a long time to figure it out
<jdandr2_> I worked through everything (every line of code many times) before I got it.
<jdandr2_> Like Sam has said before, this whole thing needs a rewrite!
<cal> Will you help me "Get it"???
<jdandr2_> sure...
<criswell> see, and the biggest problem is that I know what should be done... but I've found if I spend the time to do it "right" I never get done! As a result, the code is cruft
<cal> well somebody teach me how to use sf.net so I can fork the code
<jdandr2_> I have never used sf.net directly...
<criswell> I can make two branches... that's no big deal
<jdandr2_> I always dled the nightly cvs builds.
<cal> sam your up!
<jdandr2_> I am going to learn htough;)
<criswell> all that we need to use on sf is CVS, bugtracking, and feature tracking
<criswell> I will move mailing lists ASAP.
<criswell> would a small howto on CVS help?
<jdandr2_> (I am alright..  I use CVS locally, but never made the jump to using net based cvs)
<cal> sam I regularly download I don't no anything bout admin'ng / commit'ng
<criswell> kewl... yeah the only hard part is that you need to set up SSH as CVS_RSH to do commits
<criswell> I alwasy forget if I dont have it in my .bashrc
<criswell> oh... about this sun hardware...
<cal> yes
<criswell> if I e-mail you guys our admin's e-mail address... could you guys send him a quick "Thank you" or something to help remind him to get this to us?
<criswell> something nice... nothing pushy... just a reminder
<cal> consider it done..
<jdandr2_> ditto
<criswell> great
<cal> sam fork the code... (help me get up to speed with so you don't have to maintaIN IT AND LETS SEE WHAT HAPPENS
<cal> damn caps lock keys...
<jdandr2_> yep
<jdandr2_> it sounds like we have a good idea of how to add international...
<cal> I think you're right jd
<jdandr2_> I think changing the engine to using sdl_ttf and then adding unicode would be the easiest
<jdandr2_> (or at least incremental tends to be better than all at once in my opinion ;)
<cal> I'm inclined to agree
<jdandr2_> I probably cannot code for another week (soo much school work), but next weekend I plan to do some coding...
<cal> jd I did a major rework of the main menu I'm gonna try some stuff there since it's the code I understand the best
<criswell> I'll make a dev branch today (have some CVS admin stuff to do first)
<criswell> cal, you're not yet on tuxtype's sf dev list... do you have a sf account?
<cal> can someone write an overview of playgame maybe something simple
<cal> sam: yes and yes
<criswell> cal: can you e-mail (or post here) your sf account so I can add you there
<cal> if not on it why do I get it???
<cal> calarndt
<criswell> no, an account for sf
<criswell> is that it? okay
<cal> yes
<jdandr2_> Sam: do you want to do the overview or d???
<criswell> ugh... yeah I could (I hate documenting ;-)
<cal> what should go/whatshould stay/what liked/whatnot liked/
<cal> and a spiff about how it works
<cal> keep simple don't eons
<cal>  keep simple don't spend eons
<cal> I don't need much just a prod...
<cal> Thanks for coming all Tuxtype will be better for what we've discussed today!
<criswell> is that it, we done?
<cal> I have what I need ... and I see the you meant list of devlp'rs not dev-list
<jdandr2_> y
<jdandr2_> have a good day all
<cal> I'll send tanscript later people waiting for me right now...
<criswell> okay, see you... I'll branch dev today
<cal> you too JD
<cal> Thanks
<criswell> thanks for transcript
<criswell> send to me, and i'll post it online
<cal> transcript saved...
<-- cal has quit ("See ya and thanks again...")

The following is an excerpt (the pertinent Tux4Kids stuff) of a private chat Jesse and I had before
we were allowed in #tux4kids ;-)
                - Sam "Criswell" Hart

<jdandr2_> I have been using QT recently and it isn't available as GPL under os x, so that makes me want to switch back...
<jdandr2_> maybe just another week.
<criswell> Really? Shoot, that blows an idea I had out of the water (cross-platform installer)
<jdandr2_> How about April 1st anounce it...
<criswell> ha ha... no one would take it seriously
<jdandr2_> I have written newsforge, apple.slashdot trying to get them to gather developers around the problem.
<jdandr2_> a GPL cross platform library that you can only use on linux isn't a cross platform library ....
<criswell> you can use it GPL under Win32.... and BeOS ;-)
<jdandr2_> hmm
<jdandr2_> I emailed trolltech and they said they have no plans of offering a gpl version for os x....
<criswell> i wanted to make a cross-platform installer (GPL) that could be used to make one binary distro that installs on multiple OSes
<jdandr2_> so is Cal asleep...
<criswell> dunno
<criswell> looks like he started it as 2am!? woah.... perhaps he's gone now then
<jdandr2_> how would 1 binary distro do this?
<criswell> not linux distro... just distro of whatever (like Tux Typing)
<criswell> it would contain binaries for each platform... an xml configuration telling what and where to install... and then a few binary installers for each platform
<jdandr2_> oh
<jdandr2_> I see.
<jdandr2_> wouldn't that be a huge file?
<jdandr2_> (realitively)
<criswell> well... yes and no... The data files would be common (images, sounds, etc)
<criswell> but there would need to be binaries for each platform, yes
<jdandr2_> I didn't think of the redundancy...
<criswell> I'm just seeing that for tuxtype, tuxmath, etc to be used more in classrooms, we might need a simple installer that isn't patented, copyrighted, etc
<criswell> and one that was general and allowed multiple configurations would be keen
<criswell> I've emailed cal... and still no response
<jdandr2_> Do you think most schools are networked? (ie. teachers have a workstation and so do students and we can communicate via tcp between then)?
<criswell> in Tucson (approx 1 mil people) they just barely networked everyone last year
<criswell> and the connections suck (I think all of TUSD shares a single DSL)
<jdandr2_> I was wondering more about connection between computers inside a classroom.
<criswell> plus, they use Novell and each machine boots its OS over the network (ouch, monday mornings, when the machins boot, it can take 40 minutes!)
<jdandr2_> I think having a teachers module on a computer may be a useful goal to enable the programs to be more educational...
<criswell> teachers module?
<jdandr2_> Teachers can set up word lists of the spelling words for the week for tuxtype
<jdandr2_> the math level for tuxmath
<jdandr2_> etc.
<jdandr2_> see progress of how the students are doing
<criswell> oh, yes, I had thought of this as well
<criswell> there was an SDL lib that was a mini-webserver that I felt would work here... but I don't know how far it's come since I last checked
<jdandr2_> I think adding a concept of users to the games and tracking there progress would be neat.
<criswell> http://jonatkins.org/SDL_websrv/
<criswell> I agree... something that could tabulate for the teacher
<jdandr2_> also my sister-in-law (8 years old) recommended that tux gives constructive advice when he "loses"
<jdandr2_> I can see it getting old for older kids...
<criswell> taht would be good.... perhaps something for the next dev cycle
<jdandr2_> but I have watched her playing games and see responds very differently to games depending on how they treat a "failure"...
<criswell> I've seen that as well...
<criswell> my wife has a game in her classroom that tells students they don't have enough "brain-power" and they need to come back when they get more.... which I find insulting
<jdandr2_> she loves this Lion King typing game becuase the ape from it tells her good things, while I got her the "Bop It" toy and she hates it because it is so sacrastic when you lose.
<jdandr2_> exactly!
<criswell> cal's on
<jdandr2_> yep
<jdandr2_> I /msged him to let me talk!
<criswell> I don't know anythin about IRC... I guess I just got lucky when I set it up before
<jdandr2_> i just know the / commands since i used tinyirc on debian